here's a link to a much better map, showing votes by county. The US looks a lot more purple than red.

http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/purple_america_2004.gif

I remember the South saying something like this not too long ago, and I don't think it was a good idea then. What we really need to do is just launch the entire midwest on rockets INTO the Middle East. That way, it's like two birds with one stone.

>Sweet snowboarding. Amazing beaches for >tanning. Cutting-edge fashion. Celebrity >sightings. What more can a girl ask for?

OIL! Grain, Cotton and a few other things that those pesky RED states produce.
You may just freeze in the dark before you starve.

The red states can't afford the blue ones leaving. They'll fight it!
Why?

Because the blue states contribute more than they receive, and the red states receive more than they contribute.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxingspending.html

Secession is a good idea until you think of the consequences. Do you really want those bible-thumping armageddon fantatics in sole control of all those nukes? At least now, the blue states offer a somewhat moderating influence.

A comment from overseas (Switzerland): hardly I've been so worried in my life, you that are living there, just tell me that 80 million of religious zealots aren't going to try to evangelize the whole world.

none of you get it do you? this nation began, and flourished under an agrarian economy (as unglamorous as it sounds). the midwest and south began this country, made it what it is and flourished under it. the midwest and south allow you all on the the coasts to sit in your high rise apartments and think up ways to hate this country as well as how to spend your hordes of dollars. until the coasts realize a couple of key points, they will always remain dominated by midwest and south.

Please Joe Blow....that's a dumb statement. The North dominated/s the South....mid 1800's proved that.

Have a nice day.

Easiest way out of Jesusland is to marry a Canadian. For you, Alexa, I'll make the sacrifice. But you have to pay for your own shoes...

:-)

Sure, we've all seen the map with entire states colored red and blue. Don't jump to the conclusion that 100% of the people in a Red State voted Red. My state is 48% Blue, but on the map it is colored 100% Red. Yes, Red has the majority and the power, but the state is still 48% blue.

The country might be divided, but it is not as clear cut as shown on the Red/Blue map.

Best Wishes to ALL Red and Blue people.

Steve
Something thats a little diffrent now than the 1800's is that there would be a few more grey than blue(see the map above). I can't speak for the rest of the states, but I know here in Midland, TX (The home town of our president)we like our guns. Besides that if the democrats could'nt win an election how do they expect to win a war?

Outside of the proper 429 lets hope the rest of you can make ends meet to afford the luxury we have known.

Last I checked, the constitution promised separation of church and state. That's what is wrong with America, we have a preacher for a president and more than half of the nation is happy with that. Believe what you want to believe, don't force your moral standards onto the rest of the world. And Whitey, Bush won the election and has yet to win the war, so says the soldiers still dying daily.

How can the majority of the country be wrong? Heres a thought... give it a good long think before flipping out... maybe they aren't?

Or how about this... maybe, just maybe, The Democratic Party should have tried a little harder to find a better candidate? I know many people who voted Democrat this election just because they did not like GWB, but more folks went the other way becuase they felt Kerry wasn't right for the job.

Regardless, look at the numbers. I think we all need to do some thinking.

Hooz.

War takes time and freedom has a price. Its a price I would gladly pay. Had HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of others not paid it, we could be bitching in German, or Japonise, maybe even Spanish. And damn those majorities. They are always getting there way.

I really, really hate that map. I'm all for a new country. Send me the map to get there. I promise to burn the evidence.

Whatever will you do for the food that is produced in the middle of the country?

I hardly consider people who voted for Bush to be the "majority". It's practically split right down the middle - and if more minorities, gays, young Americans and women would have voted, I don't see anyway Bush would still be in the White House.

3,510,358
Thats a big #.
Its the # that expresses how many more people want Bush than kerry.
So what your saying dawn is that if Liberals wernt so lazy, we would have a differnt president? Interesting philosophy.

People didn't pick Bush because they thought he would do a better job, they picked him because he is a "Christian". Apparently religion is more important to most Americans than their well-being.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/03/60II/main653593.shtml?CMP=ILC-SearchStories

All that hype MTV and Puff and Hollywood did, did amounted to shit??. A whopping 17% of the youth voted!!! Incredible. So who is to blame for Kerry losing? I would have to say it was the democratic party who clearly can’t put together a campaign strategy. Come on! what have they given us, Gore, Kerry and Howard Dean was frontrunner for awhile, that alone speaks in itself. I am 23 and don’t know shit about it but I can see a smear campaign mixed in with a bunch of liberal bullshit. I voted for Bush, but then again I didn’t have much of a choice and the polls clearly showed that.

Put the blame with the Democrat party not the people that voted for bush, Democrats are clearly the reason Bush is still president when he shouldn't of been President at all in the first place.

Voting for Bush because he identifies himself as a Christian is oversimplifying things a bit. Jewish voters, for example, are increasingly voting Republican, and they are hardly in favor of Bush's brand of Christianity.

When voters cite "morality," I believe they mean more than tired fights about abortion and same-sex marriage. They want to feel that their religious feelings are respected and taken seriously by those in power. They want to register disapproval at a political party that continues to defend a former President who was found to have taken advantage sexually of an emotionally-needy woman younger than the home appliances of many of us.

I am a member of a very small, non-Christian minority, but I regularly experience minor harrassment and occasionally actual discrimination. By whom? Not by members of the heavily-reviled Christian right, who, aside from the occasional conversion attempt, are generally inquisitive and respectful.

No, the folks who make derisive comments about my headcovering or express disbelief at my rituals would almost all identify themselves as liberals or progressives. They've apparently decided that I'm too feeble-minded to make what they consider the right choice religiously, so they'll just enlighten me a little and tell me how distasteful the "modern world" finds me.

I don't believe that John Kerry or any major Democratic candidate necessarily endorses such a viewpoint. But the Democratic Party has allowed itself to be represented to voters by a combination of nitwit celebrites and soi-disant intellectuals who *do* express this attitude -- frequently and vehemently.

I would like to vote for a Democrat in the future, but the party needs to jettison the starlets and rock stars. Surely there's a high school debate coach out there somewhere who could teach the entire nation what constitutes reasoned persuasion.

Can Virginia come too?

Why dont we just mesh the colors together and have a nice plum (or maybe a nice lavender) color? A plum/lavender-colored U.S.A. Cuz I read somewhere that lavender colors and scents are the most relaxing and most tranquill, so it'll totally get us all in a better and happy mood. What do u think?

did you expect the country to all vote for only one candidate? i don't understand why people are so confused by how the country divided on this election.

some areas are traditionally liberal, while others are conservative. try as they might, most people will not vote outside of their party, regardless of whether their candidate is an asshat or not.

and by asshat, i refer to both bush and kerry.

We are split so here is what I would like the solution to be...
economically red
socially blue

That way the repubs would get to keep there money and the democarats would get what they really want there way on the issues.

mr. b- that sounds very libertarian to me. With a little "l" of course

I haven't read all the comments so apologies if this has already been covered.

I think the principles of a democracy and a union like the USA is, is that you don't just secede because the rest of the country doesn't agree with you. Remember there are a lot of people who voted for Bush in the blue coloured states - should they be denied their democratic rights by seceding? Also, there are a lot of Kerry supporters in the red coloured states. If you secede, then they are being denied the chance of the president of their choice in the future.

So, I'm afraid I don't agree with you Alexa (sorry). What the Democrats need to do is choose another candidate (Hillary Clinton??) and get their message across next time and do it that way, i.e. democratically. I would have preferred Kerry to win but, being in the UK, I don't have a vote.

BTW, can someone explain why two states are in grey and have "none" as their vote. What does this mean? Did they vote for an independent?

Some people want to move to Canada.. :)

another map. scary resemblance.
http://www.learner.org/biographyofamerica/prog10/maps/

Do you really think the President is all that powerful? Duh. If people put as much thought into the rest of the politicians in congress and the senate things may be a bit different. Dems are to busy hating Bush to think straight and Reps are to busy being right to back down a step or two. How many of you have every written, called, emailed, visited, or contacted in any way one of your government representatives? Learn how our Democracy works and make it work for you. If you don't understand it, won't understand it, or rather not participate fully then go to Canada or another country.

I have a better idea, instead of secceding from the union, lets give texas back to mexico. That way Bush would be a Mexican and he would unable to be president. Also with everything from the Lousiana purchase we can sell it back to France at a nice rate.

With the south, that came with the original 13 colonies revert it back to a penal colony, and set up death matches there gladiator style. With the money made from the pay per view and commercials can easily support the loss of the states we lose.

Would you please? It would be ever so nice for America to get rid of the dead weight that is dragging it down. Namely, the East Coast and West Coast. Then we might be able to make something of this country.

And to the idiots who talk of moving... Good riddance. If you don't want to work to make the country how you want it, then leave. Make sure you leave your citizenship at the border.

HA! Surely you jest, squirrel...

"You guys" have had control for the past four years. Umm, what good have you done?

I live in Montreal and, in Quebec, there are seperatists that seem to think leaving Canada would be a good idea... We're so "special" because we speak French. Woopee. Imagine if middle america wanted to secede? Wow. That's crazy. All this thinking makes me crave a beer and some bacon.

Here another map. Funny but true.
http://krym3.shackspace.com/newmap.jpg

Did it every occur to any of you that Bush is still in office becuase more than half of this country can not stand change of any kind.

Look how long it took us to consider African Americans equal. Look how long it took us to realize that women have voices to and should be allowed to vote. Look how long it has taken for this country to realize that a womans body is just that, HER body. To this very day we still have people who will never agree with the changes that were made and do

This country has a very hard time accepting change of any kind and it's only because we are afraid of the unknown. There were no politics involved with this election, it was a simple case of joe schmoe and Jane doe trying to keep things the way they are because they were scared.

It's sad but true.

And no I didn't read all of the comments before posting this.

Sorry I was typing so fast that I forgot to erase "and do" from the second paragraph. My apologies.

The map Eric provided at the top of the comments is an interesting one to look at. Much more realistic (and less scary) that the Red vs. Blue county map being shown at USA Today. Purple. Then again, there's a certain black and white, "you're either for us 100% or against us 100%" mentality to the "we've got morals and you don't" turning point in this campaign. It's not flip-flopping to see and work with the fact that there's grey.

And if you haven't seen it, there's the site www.marryanamerican.ca for all those trying to get out of the country. Best column on that subject comes from Mark Morford: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2004/11/05/notes110504.DTL&nl=fix

[quote]"I have a different vision of leadership. A leadership is someone who brings people together." —George W. Bush, Bartlett, Tenn., Aug. 18, 2000[/quote]

Hi people as name sugests im not American, so you may or may not like what im going to say...but how can a person who says things like that get elected 2 times, no offence but thats just dumb GWB didnt do anything for America Except bring the war to your own country....what happend on september the 11th was a Tragedy...invading Iraq had nothing to do with Terrorism, and you realy think that oil Iraq has is worth the lifes of you soliders?

i personally the GWB and John Howard are Idiots....but thats only my opinion...

forgot to mention that i got that GWB quote from
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms2000.htm

Hey joe blow - In case you failed to notice, the largest city in the Midwest (Chicago) belongs to a state that voted Kerry. In fact, Kerry royally kicked Bush's ass in Illinois. You know, the state that your beloved Midwest belongs to (which I happen to be a resident of). Oh, and in case you forgot, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan also belong to the Midwest. Oh! Whaddya know? Kerry won those states, too!

the midwest and south began this country, made it what it is and flourished under it.

Actually, if you want to flip to the very beginning of your American History text book from elementary school, you will see that the northeast and eastern seaboard states started this nation. Plymouth Rock ring a bell?

until the coasts realize a couple of key points, they will always remain dominated by midwest and south.

God, there are many, many things I could say to this asinine comment. You know, things like pointing out the fact that California's economy is the fifth largest in the WORLD and other such wonderful facts. But hell, I won't waste my time. You did a fine enough job making yourself look like an ass on your own without my help. No need for me to point it out the obvious.

And dixie - 3,510,358 IS a big number. But, when you compare it to the total number of votes (115,409,172), it's not so big anymore, is it? Don't worry, I did the math for you- your big number is a whopping 3% of the total vote.

ARGH! Enough of this useless political banter. See what happens when you write a few too many opinion statements and/or jokes about the election? Pundits from both sides come in with numbers and opinions and WHO THE HELL CARES. It's OVER. I didn't want Bush, but we got him, and after this, we will never have him again. Period.

NOT blue states blue counties ALL of which were urban. The blue state of New York with 62 counties 22 blue and an amazing 40 that were RED. All the blue counties were urban areas subtract Manhatten,Brooklyn, Queens etc. the state is RED.
The reason may be found in the following quote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship." (Alexander Tyler, in his 1770 book, Cycle of Democracy)

When I lightly rub your feet and your well turned ankles with warm soothing oil ... the big bad bush will go away forever ... and all will be well with the world.

Bush has the Born Again Christian vote. Believe it or not that is 46% of the population.

We gave it a good shot but that is hard to beat.

It is going to be a long 4 years.

With regard to Melissa's point: This is precisely why Bush won the election and why Republicans dominated other races.

The percentage or people who describe themselves as "born-again" changes with each poll. It's imprecise because that adjective can be used by everyone from main-line Episcopalians to a snake-handling sect.

The press was unknowingly very detrimental to the Democrats, often profiling extreme Bush-haters involved in over-the-top protests. The Internet was no friend of the Democrats, either. For every loony right-wing website or post, there seemed to be many more -- often on nonpolitical forums -- from anti-Bush folks who could barely keep the spittle from running down their chins. And, oddly, virtually none of them contained any footnoteable facts.

Concerned about the affect of the high percentage of "born again" Christians on national elections? Tell the Democratic Party to stop treating religious people of all types as some kind of ridiculous joke. *Then* you'll have a chance to make a case for why they should vote Democratic!

Well... even if you cannot secede, you can leave. Which I am going to do if next four years seem more of the same.

As I said in my post:
http://ionimbalance.blogspot.com/2004/11/four-more-years.html
-----------------------------------------------
"Now, we have four more years of him watching Nicklodeon instead of reading newspapers, while his buddies push through their agendas without fear of reprisal, this being his final term. There is a lot to look forward to.

I am looking forward to a revised version of the Patriot Act.. the one that requires people to tattoo stars and stripes on their foreheads in order to help government combat terrorism.. are they the same stars that were used by Nazis and the stripes that are used in barcodes, is yet to be seen."

I think the problem may be that the Dems are looking for leaders in all the wrong places. Try the Governor's mansions instead of the Senate floor. After all, our last 2 Dem Presidents were Governors in red or borderline states(Clinton and Carter).

First off, we need at least 3 or 5 parties who don't think alike. I mean the Republicans and Democrats make a lot of money per year and don't understand the issues that we dealw ith everyday. Making rent/mortgage payments, having a job to pay bills, etc.

We need, as an electorate, to really press the parties to bring out candidates that we want in office. Candidates that will help fix the country and put the citizens first, not their pocket books.

In reference to the South and Midwest. We're all Americans, doesn't matter where you're from, you're an American to the rest of the world. Most states were spilt pretty close, true there were some more geared towards Kerry and some towards Bush, but the majority was usually a 53/47 ratio.

Also, don't bring up the civil war in terms of one side dominating the other. Books have been written about that, and it's off subject at hand. We're all unique and have a lot of good things to offer each other. I like where I live, but I like going to just about every other state, when I get the chance, to be able to do things I can't in my state.

Just remember that politics is a dirty business and it's up to us to clean it up.

Here's the real reason why Bush won the election:

http://tinyurl.com/5hhvk

Just stating the facts...

To the person who called New York a red state: obviously this person has never been to the 40 counties that lean toward the right. There's NOBODY there. People drive 40 minutes to go the supermarket. I just needed to correct that point. New York has four major cities, and a handful of college towns. We are progressive (I like that term better than liberal) -- through and through.

Also, to the person who asked why Iowa and New Mexico are gray: at the time that map was printed, those states hadn't finished tallying their returns. But they voted (with a slim margin) for Bush.

I think the interesting thing about secession is not red versus blue. But there is a very good argument that the country is too big and therefore no one vote really makes a difference. And no one even mentioned that little (defunct?) thing called the electoral college ...

Can we in the Southeast succeed with y'all. We have lotsa practice.

I can't believe how out of touch the media is with a majority of the country. Democrats dominate the media and push a self righteous agenda that everyone must believe what they say. The liberals spout their opinions under the label of "news" or "documentaries”. Was anyone else surprised that Dan Rather was working on Election Night on CBS? It may shock you out there but I am going to let you in on a Republican secret. People think for themselves, they are capable of making intelligent decisions based on rational thought. Be gracious in victory, but especially in defeat.

Hey girl! Southerner here. (uh...maybe I shoulda said hay ya'll lol) Don't think like that. It's not as divided as you think. There's a whole lot of blue in those red states, and a whole lot of red in some blue states. This is one country united in making it a better place in a dangerous time whether it is united under God or not. It's the "how" to go about that concerning the war on terror where so many part ways. Neither would make it long at all without the other. The religious right is not taking over either. Turn percentage of those voting "moral values" into real numbers and campare that number to the number of voters (for Kerry and Bush together) who were not voting based on moral values. That's far from a coup. That's just backlash over a mixture of many things, the top three being Sept.11 (people tend to think more about morality when faced with their own mortality), then some things on pupic airwaves that many feel like they shouldn't have to pay for via taxes, and the release of the movie "Passion of the Christ" touched so many people & made them think, and not only think but vote their conclusions. I'm living in the thick of it all, just moved back south after 11 yrs and it seems like people are more moderate down here to me. It's just a slow change in the south. Heck, I was still refusing to wear white after labor day until not long ago. lol If you focus on the bad, then it will always seem like that's all there is. We all agree on more than we disagree on and that's a fact. To suggest we split is silly because it wouldn't work for either and it doesn't have to be that way. My husband served in the U.S. Army under 8 yrs of Clinton and our pay was lowered, benefits lowered, military hospitals understaffed & underfunded, soldier's training was horrendous, the guys always waiting on supplies or maint on shoddy tanks that wasn't coming...stuck in the field unable to train, covered in ticks, fleas & filth and at the same time our troops were sent all over to die on behalf of the U.N. Some days I wondered if America even knew, or cared about us at all. Life was hard and I don't hate Clinton, never did, never suggested we not serve this country, or suggest a split because he was a democrat and the country or military wasn't headed in the direction that I felt best. I tried to concentrate on the good Clinton was doing, and things I agreed with him about. I lived and it got better for us almost immediately under Bush. This is not to say your views and experiences aren't valid, just makes us a better person to try and put ourselves in another's shoes before we do or suggest anything rash. ;)

I think this sheds some light on this topic. Facts are a real SOB.

Red State Generosity

November 10, 2004, from the Phil Valentine Show

Don't look now but another Civil War is brewing. The nation just re-elected George W. Bush and it's not sitting well with portions of the country, namely the now-famous blue states. There are 19 of them, total. They make up primarily the Northeast, the Rust Belt in the Mid-West and the Left Coast. They boast some of the nation's largest population centers – New York, Chicago, Los Angeles. They don't think it's fair that someone from “fly-over country” is in charge so instead of doing the honorable thing and moving to France with Johnny Depp, they want to take their states and start a new country.
Where does all this talk come from?
It's coming from the very same people who have spewed the same old liberal rhetoric during recent elections in order to play on our innate sense of class envy. The ‘haves' are made to feel guilty by those purportedly speaking on behalf of the ‘have-nots.' We're taught, first, that we should feel guilty for any success we achieve and, second, that the liberal, compassionate thing to do is to give away that ill-gotten booty.
After George W. Bush won re-election (I love to keep repeating that ‘cause it burns those disgruntled liberals up), prominent Democrats advanced the possibility of secession. Democratic activist Bob Beckel told “Fox & Friends” the morning after the election, “I think now that slavery is taken care of, I'm for letting the South form its own nation.” MSNBC political analyst Lawrence O'Donnell concurred. “The segment of the country that pays for the federal government is now being governed by the people who don't pay for the federal government,” O'Donnell whined. In his effort to whip up discontent among the blue states using class warfare, O'Donnell forgot something. The facts.
Indeed, the blue states pay roughly 20 percent more than the red states in federal income tax yet the blue states have an average of sixty-one percent more citizens on government welfare. The raw numbers paint an even uglier picture. Despite the fact that there are more people in the red states, the number of people on welfare in the Kerry states is almost three times the number in the Bush states.
The liberals will also have you believe they give more than conservatives to charity. Here are the facts. According to the Massachusetts-based Catalogue of Philanthropy's Generosity Index, millionaire-concentrated California is not the most charitable state. The most giving state in the union is – are you ready for this? – Mississippi. That's right, a red state. Their “Having Rank,” according to the index, is 50th out of the 50 states. Their “Giving Rank,” despite their relatively meager means, is 5th . That translates into a generosity index of first place. California, by contrast, is 6th in “Having Rank” and a dismal 17th in “Giving Rank” leaving them in 29th place. New York, by the way, is in 26th place.
Here's another interesting tidbit. Of the top 10 most giving states, every single one is a red state. Of the top 25 giving states, every one is a red state. All of the blue states rank 26 or below in generosity. So much for compassionate, giving liberals, eh? The bottom line is this; liberals are for higher taxes but when it comes to helping the less fortunate, without the threat of jail time, conservatives are the ones who step up to the plate.
As for secession? I say let ‘em go. With so many people riding the wagon compared to those pulling, it won't be long before they tire of it. Then maybe they'll see red, too.

Also, refer to...http://www.philvalentine.com/RedStateGenerosity.htm

Secession is a viable outcome, and honestly in many ways a preferable one.

The Blue states contain the bulk of the wealth of the nation whether it be money, industrial plant or intellect.

However, there is one small problem: Nations with non contiguous borders don't work!

But there is a workaround! We could Federate with the Candadians! That way the West coast has a direct land connection with the rest of the country.

Now for those that say that secession is impractical or sour grapes.. Lets be honest here. The tone in which you refer the blue states in the red states is not one of love. You don't like us anymore then we like you.

And anyone that has been in a relationship knows that is the point at which no matter what the relationship is OVER and it is not going to be coming back.

Could the Blue States actually do it and win?

Yes. The bulk of the combat divisions of the Federal army is engaged overses and could not be withdrawn and the bulk of the national guard troops that are overseas as well are from RED states last I checked. And that leaves the blue states with a narrow advantage in combat forces available. More importantly, California has an old style State militia in addition to a national guard. And that is the real advantage. Old style militia units are much harder to federalize and answer to the Governor of the State and not the President first. Oh did I mention that the California State militia ORBAT includes an armored division?

And for those that commented on what we would eat...

The blue states have enough agro potential to be food exporters on their own. And they also have limited but viable petro reserves.

And no need to worry about nukes! Washington and Connecticut both have large nuclear missile submarine bases.

So... as much as the red states would like to put up a big front, they really could not afford to let us go, they simply could not afford to keep up their highway systems; and they would have a tough time keeping us if we really tried to leave.

It could be done, it probably SHOULD be done, but is it something that we really want? Is living next to these people so onerous that we can no longer stand it?

Given the evidence of election fraud in Ohio, and the highly improbable result of the election compared to the exit polls (odds of it not be fraudalent are about 959,000-1 according to statistical analysis at U of Ill). Can we trust these people any longer?