I totally agree!!!! trust me, coming from a different country you can only scratch your head trying to make some sense of the fact that our president is not elected by the majority!!! things get even worse when you try to understand how the country can make the same mistake twice! this country is very, very hard to understand... on one hand we are shock to see Janet Jackson covered nipple on TV and we spend millions of dollars fighting against indicency and the media spent hours and hours reporting about it... but the number of american soldiers dying outside the country only gets a few seconds a day! goddammit I'm mad!!! please, please somebody out there give me some hope, make me believe that the world's greatest superpower has more to offer than people who help some guys who want to ban abortion in all cases (shouldn't women have a choice with their own bodies??), and guys who want to ban gays and single mothers to be school teachers!! "4 more years" every time i heard that my heart hurt to think about the future of my baby... 11 states banning gay marriage, no future in stem cell research and a possible (very possible) draft... home of the free?? are you kidding me?

Hmmm..

Over here in Australia I'm feeling pretty down..

The notion that the majority of American's are fucking stupid has been confirmed by the apparent way the voting has gone.

How could people possibly vote for a man/administration that has gone so so wrong in so many areas?

I don't really understand the specifics of your electoral system, but it appears that Kerry still may have a slim chance...but I doubt it..

Sad day in history. :(

Let me exercise my right as an non-american (Read: International living in the US) and say how sorry I am to see that the US is going down in its own standard by electing someone who can still convince people that what they do is the right and only way to do it. If this is democracy, I hope that you will redefine it in other countries which do a much better job of electing people.
You should abolish the EV system because someone who voted for Kerry in Texas doesnt have his vote included because Bush won Texas. That isnt just fair.

I say to these two."Strip in your undies, get in the middle of the ring and start kick boxing,fellas. That way the winner can be determined faster".

I am from a small state. I think we should get rid of the electoral college because it is a waste of time. All it says to me is that you don't get to choose who the president is. You have to sit there and take it. So I always vote for superman to win the election. Better then having either one of those dimwits in the office. I also agree that Bush is a moron.

Its a good day for god fearing closed minded authoritarians.

Bush was just elected by the biggest majority in US history. Bigger than even Reagan. Still, technically Kerry could win through the electoral college - a system that does work well - even though it takes some thought to grasp why it is important.

We had a clear choice, to go with Bush and continue in American Exceptionalism, or go with Kerry and become like Europe. Really no contest, except for the fight against the Media Wing of the Democrat party (ABCNBCCNNCBSNYT etc.)

If you don't understand American Exceptionalism you won't understand us or this vote. Whereever you are would you vote to go from your system to that of say, Sudan? Doubt it. That's the way we feel about your system. It sucks. Believe me. I know you can't or don't want to see it. But there it is. It takes courage to face the truth.

We welcome you to take on exceptionalism too, to rise above the socialist masses, it is hard work and you have to believe in yourself, individual liberty, and an Almighty who creates all men equally exceptional. Then you have to walk into it. Good luck, I'm behind you 100%.

I agree completely. Maybe if the electoral college had been eliminated, my partner and I would be able to get married, or share health insurance, or be thought of as a valid family...

As it stands it will be a much longer time before that happens, and that makes me very, very sad.

How can you people say the majority hasn't been heard? Look at the total vote, Bush is ahead by 3 mil plus votes!

And our founding fathers had the wisdom to create the electoral college...and it, too, says George is with us for another four years.

Quit whining people...he is our President...and it is kinda funny to read people who don't even pay taxes tell you to have your voice heard! Puh leeze....when you start participating as a tax-paying citizen, that is when you have a right to be heard...until that time, live off the "rich white man", who actually does pay taxes!

you guys arguing the point of abolishing the Electoral College think about what you are saying. Do you really want the election to be decided by Los Angeles, New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, Portland, Seattle, Miami, etc. oh wait, you're all Democrats, so i guess the answer is yes. do you know what kind of pandering mess it would be to have these candidates only concerned about the major cities in the US? our system isn't perfect, but it works. oh, and Bush won the popular vote by 4 million.

knight, you're a fool.

if you actually read alexa's article, you'd know that she thinks that bush should win even if the electoral college votes come out for kerry later today.

you're an even bigger fool because you talk about the electoral college being a wise thing even though there is a chance that bush could technically still lose, even with the majority vote.

you're probably not a rich white man, but you're definitely a dumb white man.

DISPROPORTIONATE representation in the Senate? Get a grip. The house of representatives is based upon the size of the state, as you know. The senate was designed to keep us the United STATES of America, not the New York states of america. I voted for Bush, not for him, but against Kerry. Kerry would have been a disaster for our country, much worse than Bush.

This was not a great election of choice, as Bush has made some miserable choices over the past 18 months. However, Kerry and his liberal agenda would have been very bad for our great country. Look at the vote across the country, outside the liberal (definition - considerably more moral-lacking) sections, Kerry never stood a chance. The solid family-based central part of the country voted against Kerry moreso than for Bush.

There, I feel better know. A tax-paying proud American.

there is something teribly wrong with your country.
why would you vote for four more years of hell??

i will never understand it.. but I do know that four years back - people respected America.and even sympathized with 9/11

Almost every country has faced some disaster so dont think youre special,, but they dont respond by killing in return.

that is so stupid.

not only does the world not sympathize or respect you anymore

just laugh at how bull headed and foolish majority of your population is.

i am so mad.

John E Voter...go read my comments again and quit trying to misconstrue my comments. I simply pointed out the obvious. You have a problem with the truth, to which I say, no problem: if you pay your taxes ethically and legally, you have a right to be heard (even if you do make such ignorant comments, or perhaps, some might say stupid comments)...

And Michael, thanks for some rationality here...nice to hear a cogent, intelligent thought as opposed to the normal liberal drivel.

Knight,

You must have a problem with reality, just like our esteemed president. I didn't misconstrue anything. But just so that your little mind can understand, I'll put some quotes here and try to not use big words.

Alexa wrote:
"I believe that most people who voted for Bush are deluded, but the people have spoken. It's time that we listen."

Hmmm.. Alexa is saying that she thinks Bush should win. Majority popular vote should decide who gets to be president even if Kerry wins more electoral votes by some really unlikely scenario.

Meanwhile, you wrote:
"How can you people say the majority hasn't been heard? Look at the total vote, Bush is ahead by 3 mil plus votes!"

OK. So now, you're telling Alexa that the majority vote should decide the issue. Basically, you're agreeing with her even if you don't know it yourself.

Then you go on to say: "And our founding fathers had the wisdom to create the electoral college...and it, too, says George is with us for another four years."

Um, do you realize that Bush could still technically lose the electoral vote? It's highly unlikely but still possible. If Kerry wins enough votes in Ohio, then he'll be the next president even though he lost the popular vote. But maybe I assume too much intelligence on your part.

There is a typical democrat response...attack the person and distort the the true issue.

Let me put this in a manner that even a simpleton such as you, john e voter, might understand.

Here is the quote: In their infinite wisdom, our founding fathers designed the Electoral College to prevent the unruly masses from participating. When Jefferson wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal," he didn't mean all people. He didn't even mean all men. He meant all rich, white men who owned land.

NOW, go back and reread my original comments...even someone with your limited intelligence should be able to see what was written and what was really said.

BTW, Brandon...good comments, also. It is nice to see some intelligence roaming this board; however, I have grown tired of arguing with idiocy, and for now will move on to a different forum that understands issues and argues them based on the merits of what was written. Ciao!

(pssttt...hey e voter, Dubya for 4 more years! WOO HOO!!!!)

Knight,

I do pay my taxes, one of the highest in the country! On 9/11 I was in manhattan, my wife crossed the WTC half an hour before the planes hit it, so don't tell me that it's not fair that people from NYC, Miami or LA can decide who's the president. People from Iowa and the Dakotas are far away from the terrorist focus, so why the hell are they so scared?? because Bush played the game of fear, he scared the crap out of everybody, even states that will never be under attack.. A quick message to all the white soccer moms who voted for Bush because of terrorism: god luck when your kids get drafted!

Bush is a disgusting simple minded liar who should be indicted and tried for war crimes. Half our born again goofball electorate thinks jesus or god or another imaginary friend helps this pissant cheerleader from Andover with his decisions. This is disgusting.

Starting today I'm going to see how hard it is to get in to the house of Representatives. After that I'm gonna swoon me a democratic ticket and run. It sucks you can't vote for me, but if I ever ran for president....

Evan in 2020!

To Cfmartin and Ben,
Did you guys get you ballots in the mail? Oh, you didn't? Maybe that gives you and idea what we think about your opinion and how we should run our country. Leave that to the voters and the american taxpayers. But, don't worry, when some socialist invades your counrty and homes, 'ole Uncle Sam will be there to save your asses.

People people people... the electoral vote system and the way we handle elections here in the US is never going to change. The real problem and frustration you guys are feeling is not with the election system or goverment in general but with the Democratic parties faliure to reach out to middle america... again and again. I know up there in New York where Democrats outnumber Republicans 5 to 1, it feels like you guys acn change the world. But, reality check, its not like that across america and never will. The continued underestimation and lack of compassion for the "middle-american" is the biggest mistake of the Democratic party in ten years. Here is something you guys need to know. A New York Democrat is a liberal, through and through. But a Ohio Democrat is a moderate, whose most important issues are family and national security over the economy and gay rights, not to even mention abortion. Until the Yankee-democrats and Hollywood begin to understand this voter, the democratic party will continue to get their asses tromped all over the place. I'm not being baised, even though I am a Republican but also a political science major, just telling you guys the facts.
When you guys bash the system, the middle-american and the Republican party, you are doing so much harm to your partys' position then you could even imagine. You guys need to regroup and learn how to reach out to your fellow democrats(instead of calling them stupid), and fellow Americans, if you want your party to ever enjoy the sucess it has in the past.

For those of you who fear that Bush, the Republican, has such a great interest in the restoration of the draft, remember who reinitiated its proposal...two Democrats

Btw... don't sweat the draft. It will never be reinstated, its illegal.. just a liberal scare tactic.

All Praise Due To God

Democrats are LOSERS!!!!

You guys are so retarded!!!!

When are you going to realize that you need to have truth and facts on your side to win in a Christian country?

LOOOOOOOOOSERS!!!!!

God bless Evangelical Christians and God bless Karl Rove. As I've been saying for months now, resistance to Karl Rove is futile. We also picked up two Bible thumpers in the Senate, all praise due to God, Tom Coburn (R-OK) and Jim DeMint (R-SC). God Almighty is our Guardian and Helper, while Democrats have no Guardian or Helper.

Let's flip a coin to decide who we invade next.

Knight,

I did vote, here's something that maybe you forgot. Unless you are native american somebody in your family came from another country many years ago, but guess what, at some point that family was able to vote, because that was the original idea of this country, right? so yes, I came from a different country, but my wife is american (from TN) and my son is also american, now, i wasn;t born in this country but I'm a proud American since i CHOOSE to be here. That right there gives me the right to complaint and express my dissapointment. If history has taught us something is that there's so much "abuse" a group can take before they cannot take it anymore and start to fight back. Do you think the arabs/muslims are going to take more invasions for much longer? what "values" are you talking about? what "family" are you talking about?

"Heck, even blacks are no longer equal to 3/5 of a white man."

Holy racism Batman, take the hood off. I can't believe you wrote that. Also, would you be so distasteful toward the electoral college if Kerry had won? No, you wouldn't. Blaming the president for ALL of America's problems is naive and indicative of being under-informed. There's more to politics. Think about the functions of the Senate, the House, and of Congress. The president can't do much without their support. See the whole picture before you start your incessant (and unproductive) bitching.

I may have been inclined to vote for Kerry if I had even half a clue on where he stood on issues. That man would pander to whatever side would get him a vote. At least Bush, right or wrong, stuck to his guns.

It seems like there are two tribes in America now, with very little in the way of shared values. "Liberal" (nasty word, right?) coasts, and a "moral" conservative centre. I hope it doesn't get ugly, but the rhetoric I've been hearing suggests that the Republican tribe demonises and prejudges the liberal moral perspective as much as they do the Muslims. And we know how productive Republican foreign policy has been...

OK, knight, I pay taxes, so let me be heard...

Bush sucks and always will. We can only look forward to 2008 and hope the the country gets some fucking sense - that is, IF, the country hasn't imploded on itself by then.

Adam made a good point that people are ignoring in favor of fighting over semantics. Though I don't quite understand what getting your ballot in the mail has to do with anything. Until the Democrat party at large pulls its head from its ass, we're not going to get anywhere. The split is -not- so black and white as it seems in New York, Seattle, LA, et al. Dems haven't yet realized this, it doesn't seem.

(Also, Brix, Republicans are now in control of all three branches of government. Just F your I.)

Bob Saget 2008!

Well, Kerry threw in the towl...

"At least Bush, right or wrong, stuck to his guns. - Berretta"
This is the line that really gets to me, and I've heard it over and over again over the past couple of months. I just can't understand why people will stick with someone just because they are consistant, even if they think that person is wrong. Why is it so horrible if someone's views and beliefs develop and change over time?

Adam got it right! The Democratic Party positions itself -- perhaps unintentionally -- as an elitist, morally superior entity looking down on us poor stupid yahoos in "flyover" states with our quaint beliefs and practices. This is not the way to win friends and influence people.

I voted for Al Gore in 2000, but this year I voted for Bush. While I'm not a strong Bush supporter, I could never figure out what the Democrats were offering except "anybody but Bush."

The constant drumbeating that "Bush is a liar" really turned me off. Particularly coming from people who excused Clinton's sexist, mysoginistic lie of "I never had sex with that woman." Where were these folks during Clinton's second term?

No weapons of mass destruction? Am I the only one who saw pictures of what Sadaam Hussein did to the Kurds? Am I the only one who read about the torture and abuse of Iraqi citizens? Am I the only one who knows Iraqi Christians whose family members "disappeared" under Hussein's rule?

Certainly, Iraq is now a mess. But we knew that going in! *Everyone* -- including Donald Rumsfeld, urged Americans not to think that we could win a quick victory. So, yes, it is terrible that we are losing young men and women in Iraq. It is terrible that so many innocent Iraqi citizens are suffering. And yes, there are cynical reasons involved in our invasion. But I believe the ultimate goal of ending the abuse and suffering of the Iraqi people will vindicate the decision.

I've come to believe that Democrats and liberals of many stripes enjoy a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't relationship with our government, particularly if the representative of that government just happens to be a Republican.

Remember Somalia? Democrats, liberals, and good-hearted people virtually demanded that we intervene during former President Bush's administration to alleviate the policy of starvation undertaken by ruling Somalis. Indeed, it was widely discussed that racial prejudice was the reason we weren't intervening.

When we finally went into Somalia -- and discovered how much harder it would be than we thought -- folks started protesting that we should be risking the lives of young men and women to help sort out the affairs of Somali warlords.

Is Bush a great President? Perhaps not, but time will tell. More has gone right since 9/11 than has gone wrong. As a business owner with 18 employees, the economy has recovered faster than I expected. And if the Democrats and their supporters would stop treating people like me as if we're mindless scum just because we disagree, maybe I'll find reasons to again vote Democratic.

Kerry has conceded, Daschle has lost his seat in the Senate and the country lurches further to the right. Planethalder.

kerry conceded bush stays president all is good.

Im exstatic that its over I don't think I can take any more of this politic bull all over the street corners and the news.

Hitler was damn wrong, but he definately "stuck to his guns". Gandhi change his lifestile. Malcolm X changed his. For centuries slaves (blacks) were thought to be inferior. when changing one's opinion became so terrible? (specially when you're wrong?) Isn't changing one's opinion part of life?

Chelle-

I agree and disagreed with of what Bush has done over his first four years. I believe he has made mistakes, but I still prefer his leadership over Kerry's.

Kerry has a right to have his views evolve and grow, but his seem to evolve and devolve almost daily. Where ever the vote was, that was his position at the time.

Amen to doing away with the electoral college. Nothing further, plain tired of politic-talk for a while.

It's over alexa. I know, I feel like crying myself. Welcome to the second half of the downward spiral that is the American finale.

The people of a country that has so much power over the rest of the world, owe it to the people of the world to take action against their governments.
Protesting on a weekend, outside of work hours doesn't do shit.
The working continues in the country and the big bosses don't care what you've got to say. They're all still making their money.
America has caused more deaths and more harm on so many different levels to so many countries that I firmly believe that you need a serious shock to your system.
Bring on attack of America I say. Then you can blow the world to pieces and be satisfied.
9/11 was brought upon you by your own government and we the people, despite feeling for the families of those killed, rejoiced that somebody let you know that we're not happy, and if you as the people of what could be a great nation don't make changes than you get what you deserve as we all do.
We are all responsible when we have the freedom to vote, to protest, to stop work so the leaders have no choice but to obey, there are more of us than there ever will be of them.
But still you take it up the arse, lie down, become sheepish and we all have to suffer along with you.
Time to sacrifice yourselves a bit more Americans, change doesn't just happen, it takes the masses to make it happen.

It's easy to understand why so many people voted for Bush. The people in middle America are so insular. (ok, not EVERYONE in middle America, but a majority)They have no idea what happens outside of the U.S., they are simply not interested in the rest of the world, unless it affects them directly (like in Iraq). Many of the people who voted for him, don't bother to read or know about international affairs/policies or international news. The only form of news they get is from local TV news, who devote more time to sports than to what's happening to the rest of the world --- Let's not get into CNN because they are not always an impartial news source. People in middle America don't bother to understand how the exploding budget deficit caused by Bush is going to be a serious problem.
They only care that this man is decisive and God fearing. Doesn't matter if he can't think for himself or is a little dumb. It's ok because Bush reminds them of themselves, the insular people of middle America.
It's easy to understand why he won but I think I'm going to be in denial for the next 4 years.

First time commenter, and I must say that I feel as bad as most of you. Not only did Bush win, but Amendment 1 passed (gay marriage ban that also refuses to recognize out-of-state civil unions) in my state (Georgia) in a landslide. And yes, we should get rid of the Electoral College. Fat chance of that happening any time soon, though.

All i can say is that I'm from Canada. I dont understand ANYTHING you people are talking about.
Everyone is either a) Democrat b) Replublican

What the fuck is all that crap? Can't someone believe in what they want without HAVING to be put into a category.

Oooh....replublicans this....wait not democrats did this first. Thats a bunch of media garbage!

Adam,

I don't think today in the world it is fair for an American to say "foreigners shut the fuck up - let us run our country". The problem is that your president will continue to fuck with the rest of the world and affect our lives. I think that for millions of foreign people that have died as a direct result of decisions by the US Administration, we foreigners definately have all the right to comment on the apparently really really stupid American people.

Why is it?
That when liberals lose the other side is "goofball electorates," "the majority of American's are fucking stupid," "god fearing closed minded authoritarians," "dumb white man," "a disgusting simple minded liar," "apparently really really stupid American people," "can't think for himself or is a little dumb," insular people of middle America." And you guys call us conservatives uncompassionate!

"All Praise Due To God

Democrats are LOSERS!!!!

You guys are so retarded!!!!

When are you going to realize that you need to have truth and facts on your side to win in a Christian country?"

"LOOOOOOOOOSERS!!!!!"

What are you 12? You really shouldn't be reading this site. Go and do your homework, and pray to GOD in six years you don't end up in a fox hole.

Without naming names, some respondents have illustrated my point perfectly. Let's see: I've now been categorized as a part of a majority that is ignorant, ill-informed, and parochial. Gosh, why on earth wouldn't I want to vote into office folks who hold such an opinion of me?!

I think much of the reaction against non-U.S. input into the election has more to do with its hypocrisy than parochialism. Despite popular belief, most U.S. citizens are well-educated enough to know that the U.S. does not have a monopoly on ill-advised foreign policy. Are we seriously being asked to take advice on foreign relations from the people who filled our history books with the dates and details of their wars, battles, and routine bickering?

I was just listening to NPR, and a French gentleman was quoted in translation as saying that Bush's references to God "scared him." Having McDonald's and DisneyWorld does not somehow make people automatically understand U.S. culture. And while I can appreciate the man's alarm, references to God in politics go straight back to the pre-Revolutionary era.

It may be wrong and some may find it distasteful, but that is our cultural heritage, and elected officials far to the left of John Kerry have also invoked the Deity over the years. So rather than a case of U.S. citizens being ignorant or uncaring about the rest of the world, I'd characterize our reaction as a demand that people not judge the U.S. based on their own cultural assumptions.

And I'll make a deal with the French gentleman on NPR: I won't wear sneakers, shorts, and a fanny-pack in the Louvre if he learns that religious references in the U.S. don't carry the same connotations they do in France.

Unfortunately TequilaMike in this country we lack a coherent election system. I'm advocating instant runoff voting. That way you can vote your conscience (sp?) without having to pick "the lesser of two evils" as so many of us did yesterday! While i'm disheartened that President Bush was able to achieve election (some might say for the first time) we need to have some sort of closure and acceptance. Hopefully Mr. Bush follows a foreign policy that will aggravate our international partners a little less, and then in 2008 We will all see our Clinton (Hillary that is)/Obama ticket win its' way into the White Office

Texas (Not from Texas, but the great state of Minnesota)

All i can say is that I'm from Canada. I dont understand ANYTHING you people are talking about.
Everyone is either a) Democrat b) Replublican

What the fuck is all that crap? Can't someone believe in what they want without HAVING to be put into a category.

Oooh....replublicans this....wait not democrats did this first. Thats a bunch of media garbage!

So those of us on the coasts mostly get it. It's like a crust of sanity on a vast slice of stupidity and ignorance. It's people like you I'm concerned for. Those in the sex trade - phone sex workers, escorts, people who run erotic sites on the web. Those are the people who're going to pay a price when the fundies start to change things. They don't even have to legislate it, they just have to make it too expensve to fight. We need to fight now - before we're already losing.

brix writes:
"Heck, even blacks are no longer equal to 3/5 of a white man.

Holy racism Batman, take the hood off. I can't believe you wrote that. Also, would you be so distasteful toward the electoral college if Kerry had won? No, you wouldn't."

brix, you're an idiot. alexa was referring to the constitution itself. when our country was founded, black people were counted as 3/5 of a white person for the purpose of setting the number of representatives that each state got. go back to your jr. high us history class.

also, if you actually read what alexa wrote and thought about it, you'd realize that she was being critical of kerry for holding out just on the possibility of an electoral college win.

what an idiot.

personally, i don't know if i agree or not with alexa. i'm from a small state and like the fact that we get at least some attention during the elections. but at least i'd argue based on the facts not on some conservative screed.

For my part, I was very proud to cast my vote for President Bush and the Republicans. Every time we've had a Democrat in the White House, America has suffered and become the vassal of Europe and the United Nations. You want to know who to blame for 11th September 2001? I'll give you two names.

(1) James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, who turned turtle and didn't flatten Iran when they overtook our embassy in a clear act of war. It cost him his presidency, thank God.

(2) Bill Clinton, who thought "retaliation" was firing a Tomahawk missile at ten square miles of empty desert and only moving sand around, encouraging terrorists that the US would continue to wave the white flag when they practiced their aggressions.

For these reasons alone, I'll never vote to put another Democrat (read: pinko liberal who wants to give up our freedoms) in office again. And I'm pretty sure that I'll vote forever for whoever Europe hates the most. They like having malleable wimps like Clinton in office, whom they could so easily control. Bush, obviously, knows that he answers to the people of the United States, and not to any other king, prince or potentate elsewhere about the world.

Outtahere,
--Patrick--

Others who choose to vote for war and for turbulence, and for bad ethics and for crappy lousy sex are free to do so.

I will always vote for peace and for tranquility and for good ethics and for the joy of great sex.

personally i hate the govt. why put someone in office that is gonna continue the tradition of fucking people over and making their lives miserable. in a certain outlook, bush could be considered a murderer. cause he has sent so many people to their deaths in a pointless war to get one man! oh well. fuck them all!

*Sigh* I'm getting really sick and tired of these gloating Republicans talking about how Democrats are trying to get rid of their freedom! Hell-fucking-o!!! Are you a woman? Then you're fucked. Are you gay? Oops, sorry. Can't teach school anymore. Are you a male between 18-60? Shit. Kiss your family goodbye, you'll be sent into an unfair war for the wrong reasons soon enough (my ex-husband was sent over TWICE and that is the reason we're not married anymore. Anyone who says war doesn't change a person is DEAD wrong.). Are you a kid? Sorry, left behind. Public health? What the hell is that?

And don't even get me started on the Patriot Act. You can go have your victory parties, safe in the fact that Bushie has prevented terrorism for the last four years. Nevermind the fact that it was his cabinet that actually ignored the 9/11 threat. Let the "domestic terrorism" begin. Remember, that's what you are if you disagree with this regime.

"pinko liberal who wants to give up our freedoms"

This VERBIAGE alone isindicative of how ignorant you are, as well as your statement, and YOU are indicative how how ignorant America is. Looked at John Ashcroft lately?

And well, geeze, you don't think there's a possibility that perhaps Carter and Clinton didn't just go bombing the shit out of a country because they valued ITS lives and more IMPORTANTLY our young Americans' lives, do you?

What the fuck are YOU PEOPLE THINKING?

"You want to know who to blame for 11th September 2001? I'll give you two names.

(1) James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, who turned turtle and didn't flatten Iran when they overtook our embassy in a clear act of war. It cost him his presidency, thank God.

(2) Bill Clinton, who thought "retaliation" was firing a Tomahawk missile at ten square miles of empty desert and only moving sand around, encouraging terrorists that the US would continue to wave the white flag when they practiced their aggressions."

I'm just wondering why are they to be blamed for the 9/11? It just doesnt make any sense.
And with regards to war, what do you believe in and fight for? Is fighting gonna change anything? How do you determine the victor? When everyone is dead?

Good question, Karma! When is war justified and what constitutes successful warfare?

I'd recommend reading Caleb Carr (the novelist and military historian) on the topic. His analysis transcends political leanings and focuses on the historical lessons we *should* have learned.

And if you really want to reflect seriously on the topic, read about Frederick the Great of Prussia, who introduced many of the military philosophies to which our government -- under both Republicans and Democrats -- adheres.

Focus on facts, not feelings! If we all spend enough time actually learning something, we'll have much less time for name-calling *and* discover that reasonable people can agree to disagree.

WOW, isn't the direct relationship between the rising anger and stupidity in this room amazing??

Note to Carol, as an insulated, ignorant midwestern rube, your comments were not only insulting but assinine. They personify the statements made earlier that our coastal breatheren have no idea what we are about. While you guys move money, move paper, make movies,and whatever else you do, we make the steel, cars, food, and everything else that makes this country great. We are the ones that rallied, and donated millions of dollars to the victims of the attack on America in NY. Are we ignorant to what happening in the EU ( yes I am familiar with the European Union, the former Soviet Union, China, and the Middle East. Yes we are. Most of the troops are from the retard 47 states that NY, CA, Ma are saddled with supporting. Damn we owe you.

While I personally thought that both of these candidates were weak, I would be interested in knowing were Kerry actually stood on anything. All I know about him is that he sold out his brothers in Nam and he hunts ugly rich widows. That and he likes to tax people. The funny thing about living in the IQ challenged 47, were perfectly content supporting ourselves. We don't need to spend $10 bucks for a six pack of beer to support a myriad of government agencies which really fail to accomplish anything.

Finally, while we respect our world neighbors, hell, we've liberated most of them at least once. We don't need their approval to defend ourselves.

Everyone needs to stop hating and berating each other, and remember that we're Americans. We are the best in the world because we refuse to be beaten. We are not a nation of WHY? but WHY NOT? So why not get along..........

I've always been curious why America thinks it has good foreign policy. I think it was the CIA that trained Osama Bin Laden and supported the Taliban when Afghanistan was at war with Russia. It was the the US that installed Sadam Hussein into power in the first place. The now exiled president/dictator of Haiti was supported by the US. There is a half dozen more dictators that I can't bring to mind right now, but it would be easy enough to look up. And for anyone that wants to bring up how the US saved Europe in WWII I would like to remind them that the US stayed neutral 'till 1943 and never actually did anything till '44. The rest of the world was in it from the beginning. Pearl Harbour had to make Americans feel scared before they would consider fighting. My American friends tell me how different they see American politics when they visit Canada, because our media has a tendency to cover all sides of world events. American media is all the same whether you want to call it Democratic or Republican. It's very narrow in it range of in depth reporting. If it bleeds it leads. But even then, that isn't always the case. When Sept.11 happened, we saw footage on CBC and BBC that none of the American networks were showing. The American 5th estate was censoring itself! Even the war in Iraq, American networks aren't showing even half of what the International networks report, which CNN is definitely not a part of anymore. It's no wonder the rest of the world looks down on America, when you cannot even see how you look to the rest of the world.

Bob. D Newhart

This is pretty funny

http://krautboy.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/new_map.jpg

Right! It hurts even where I am in Mexico right now :( Sad in deed.

Now that you guys have VOTED in the Christian Taliban, are we allowed to attack you, invade you and teach you guys proper democracy?

If not - why did you guys vote for him ???????????????????????

Hal, I have to agree with you, and some of the more intelligent remarks in this string. I am amazed at how some people think. I do see a theme in the discusion about fear, fear that someone will have to go off and defend this country. My grandfather defended this country, my father defended this country, I defended this country and my son is currently defending this country. In my humble opnion if a person voted for Kerry because they didn't want to defend this country , I and my ancestors would like for them to take a ship back to the country of their choice.

Bob --

I'm not sure that U.S. citizens particularly feel that their foreign policy is "good." The efficacy of a policy -- foreign or domestic -- is constantly changing. Circumstances change and policies always have unintended consequences.

Your example of WWII is perfect, and shows how easy it is to criticize any leadership when you're using 20/20 hindsight. There was a significant pacifist, isolationist movement in the U.S. during the early years of WWII that mounted serious arguments to stay out of the whole mess. So is your argument that the U.S. should have become involved sooner or that the U.S. should have minded its own business until attacked?

The constant refrain that the U.S. doesn't know or doesn't care how it appears on the world stage is very wearying to those of us who travel or read widely. Many of us are uncertain that the goal of the U.S. is to be popular and well-liked.

If you want to argue that U.S. citizens should travel abroad more or spend more time learning about other countries, then I think you've got a good argument. But it can't be one-sided. Many of the fine people I've met abroad are, I regret to say, limited in their understanding of the U.S. to McDonald's, Coca-Cola, and Nikes.

They are blissfully ignorant of the strong Puritan and Calvinist influences on Americans of all religions. They have no acquaintance with the impact of the philosophies of individualism. If you have a passing familiarity with these concepts in the development of America, you will not be shocked by the election of Bush or by disgust with Clinton. You can approve or disapprove, but that is like "disapproving" of English cuisine.

Of course, there are bellicose Americans. I usually allot 10 percent of every national or ethnic group to be made up of idiots. But, frankly, telling a majority of a country's citizens how stupid they are is usually not a winning proposition -- either at the policy level or on the individual level. As you point out, all our countries have a string of foreign policy fiascos that prove it.

"I would be interested in knowing were Kerry actually stood on anything. All I know about him is that he sold out his brothers in Nam and he hunts ugly rich widows. That and he likes to tax people"

THAT'S intelligent? Just what is it that you read that keeps you so well informed? CLEARLY you didn't choose to become informed about the candidates, or YOU would not have made such an assinine, insulting BERATING statement.

And this is NOT your grandfather's war, James. Those of that are against it are because YOUR SON is NOT fighting for HIS country, and we don't think he should be there at all.

~from the Midwest, but neither insulated, ignorant, nor a RUBE~

How about telling the majority of the American population that while we are confident they are not stupid, we are also confident they just made a really, really stupid decision. Some of us do recognize America's individualist and/or Puritanical ethos-based heritage but do not wish to white-wash or completely turn our backs on our own rich heritage of innovation, dissent, free-speech, religious freedom and the ideals of tolerance, liberty, and equality - which perhaps may not have been the priorities of our founding fathers in actuality- but very much continue to survive and thrive in American rhetoric, hearts, and minds.

Jalal,

Feel free to invade. Come and get IT!

Whoseyourkitty,

I live in Boston. I have lived in Boston for thirty years. I couldn't tell you what John Kerry stands for, and I tend to believe that he couldn't either. Maybe if he could, he might have won the election. My brother lives in Cleveland. He begged me to give him a reason to vote for Kerry. I couldn't.........

By the way, for those interested. The system does still work. Arlen Spector, who will head the senate judiciary committee, has stated that any nominee to the supreme court that would overturn Roe V Wade will be turned away. Also, the main religious nut in Bushs' cabinet, John Asscroft, is on his way out the door.

Hmmm. It all went wrong after 1776. Should never have given 'em independence, lol.

Well, the PRIMARY reason to vote for Kerry was he's not a moron, he can pronounce the name of the country we're at war with, and he's pro choice. In other words, he's not BUSH! DUH!

You should have gone to his website.

Whoseyourkitty,

Damn what a persuasive argument. You sound just like the rocket scientists that voted for dole because he wasn't bill clinton. You didn't vote for kerry, you voted against bush. If I may give you a quick civics lesson, the president cannot make laws. congress makes laws. Therefore, the president cannot outlaw abortion.

As an aside, in a debate, standing on a single platform is a sure fire method for losing. While I am strictly pro-choice, I can give you a number of reasons to vote for George W. Bush, over your candidate. Who was your candidate, anyone not named George Bush???

Another little lesson, after 15 years in sales, I've learned its' much easier to sell something you believe in as opposed to selling something based on what or who it isn't!

You'll come to appreciate these lessons as you mature into adulthood.

Whoseyourkitty,

You should apologize to Hal. It seems from this angle that even uninformed, he was much more informed than you.............

you should read this article by greg palast:

http://www.tompaine.com/print/kerry_won.php

Interesting link, Mark. Looks like America got screwed again...

Now Alexa, for all our sakes, go out and f*ck someone (or at least entertain them for several hours) and tell us about it!

Please.

Well, for all those who cherish or hate a fully Republican run government, may I direct you (and wear your tin foil hats) to the following:

http://home.earthlink.net/~platter/neo-conservatism/pnac.html

More informed and clearly more intelligent THAN you, Mikey,(just what IS it you SELL?) I felt I had to break it down in simplistc terms for a simpleton. But I am impressed that you're aware there are 3 branches of government. I'm aware of who makes the laws, and I betcha I know a great deal more about law THAN YOU, sales guy. Perhaps you need to grasp the concept, or the COMMON FUCKING SENSE that VERY soon, the three governmental branches are all going to be a Bushie menage a' trois.

Something about that get you off? NOT ME.

Just to correct a previous post: Bush didn't even come close to winning by the biggest margin in history. Reagan got something like 60% of the national vote in his second election. BTW, Bush had more people vote against him this time than for him in 2000, so get a clue. lol

I was wondering whats an "Electoral College"?
I have never heard of it before...from the name it sounds like colleges voting?

The fact that you people are so upset is funny because bush shows that he cares about this country by trying to get us oil for the rest of are lives. I know everybody in this country loves there cars as much as me. And without oil we could easily be taken over.

its a point that has been made before but a: its an election, your opponents are not stupid, evil, narrow minded, hitler etc. They looked at the facts that were important to them and made the decision to vote for the guy who was closest to thier view. For some it was gay marriage, for some tax cuts, for some Iraq, for some they just didn't like whichever guy. We are not ill informed or uninformed. We place our emphasis on different data.

The electoral college is in place to ensure that the tyranny of the majority can be held in check, that small states have can effect Presidential politics. Somewhere along the line, Democrats stopped appealing to middle America. Nominating a guy who opposed the Viet Nam war was not a problem (Hell Clinton was a draft dodger) but nominating someone who betrayed his brothers in arms the way he did, publicly accussing them all of committing war crimes and then never ever apologizing for it. I mean, Bush is supposed to be the stupid one, but this was criminal negligence. Did no one think this was going to come out. I know many blue staters are wondering how come 59 million of thier countrymen voted for Bush. My question is how can 55 million have voted for someone who committed treason (Meeting with the enemy in 1971 in Paris as a Naval reserve officer is treason) and slandered the men he left behind boggles my mind.

I'm still reeling from the lick Bush from a few posts ago.

Regardless of who wins or loses, the Electoral College is ridiculous and should be abolished. Complaints about "pandering" to the big cities is ridiculous as the big cities are normally so diverse, you can't ever really "pander" to them anyway. So instead, now we have "pandering" to "battleground" states? That is so much better.:P
Campaign politics in general is pretty stupid, but unfortunately, as long as PACs and unions and big businesses want to exercise influence over politics, it will never change. Either get rid of the electoral college or have it become universally a percentage system. To disenfranchise the minority in a state from being heard sounds downright unconstitutional.