Yeah, I think that totally sucks if people in general place the blame for this one squarely on the shoulders of Kerry.

The argument, for me anyways, was over at:

Kerry: Went to Vietnam
Bush: Didn't

To HAVE to go into specifics when it comes to their military records, really sucks, but I guess that's just how the cookie crumbles.

Why should Vietnam service matter at all? Both Kerry and Bush have questions surrounding their service, yet both of them received honorable discharges. I really don't see where service in Vietnam makes a difference of necessarily qualifies one to be president.

Remember that Clinton didn't serve in Vietnam. When he was getting elected Democrats were saying that military service didn't matter for a President. Why should that have changed?

I think we should be focusing on more important topics. Like who's going to keep this country safe from terrorism for then next four years.

A Bush Campaign plant?

Well, not technically impossible. Of course, they'd have to have known that Dan Rather and his pals were both credulous and desperate enough to accept such a blatantly stupid forgery.

(Desperate I can see, but I'm amazed they fell for such obvious forgeries. Aren't there any professionals left at CBS?)

By the way, Amy... which way did the "Went, Didn't" factoid persuade you? And what about the "Didn't and Won't release his records even though he's running on his service vs Did release his records even though he's NOT running on his service" factoid?

The latter seems more persuasive. But then again I'm naturally suspicious of politicians that run on a record they won't make public.

Hhahaha nice site mate. I likes. =)

Oh I totally think the Bush campaign planted those memos. No doubt about it in my mind.

Carl Rove once broke into a Democratic candidate's
office, stole his letterhead, and invited several
hundred homeless people to the opening of the
candidate's campaign headquaters, promising them
free food. Ruined the event for the candidate.

Could he be responsible for a fake of this
magnitude? You bet your ass he could.

Hi Alexa -

I'd have responded to your email but it seems a few days without a connection have turned me into a complete anti-geek loser, and I deleted it. :(

If you shoot me off another email I'll shoot you back a reply... could you?

Thanks muchly!!!
Rose

There's been a history with both of the Bushes for running a nasty campaign for any elected position, so it wouldn't suprise me if this was done by the Bush camp.

The 60 minutes guys knew the memos would be controversial. They did what they could to verify and much of the so-called internet forgery finding is spurious. They could be fakes but some college kid with Microsoft Word certainly isn't an authority. Rather and company also checked on the th which has been available on typewriters for a long time (I had one of a similar typeface in the 70s). Being able to simulate a document from the past via Microsoft Word does not prove anything (other than the flexibility of Word in being able to duplicate old documents). The White House certainly didn't call them fake, but released them as authentic as coming from 60 Minutes. In any case, those of us who have made up our minds about who we want to win and whether this candidate or that one is shooting to become the next Sauron, won't be swayed by much either way. The White House keeps releasing new documents on Bush's service and each time they say "that's everything, there is nothing else" and then a few months later new stuff comes out. Whether Bush violated military conduct codes, disobeyed orders for a physical (which he refused to take for reasons that are in and of themselves interesting), or that he should have been sent immediately to active duty as per his service conditions, the illegal abortion for his girlfriend, the cocaine use, the alcoholism and multiple drunk driving convictions (including a sealed record in Texas so reporters can't dig up the photos), his use of family influence and connections to the Saudis . . . this is all old news. If this stuff didn't hurt him before, it isn't going to do the damage now. The Kerry campaign started by keeping out of it as Kerry prefers to focus on current issues but the Bush campaign keeps re-opening that line of inquiry. The Vietnam war was a long time ago. It may still be fresh in the American cultural consciousness but it is old news. What matters is right now. Are the boys dying in Iraq doing so for the right reasons - as if any death can be justified - and are the problems coming out such as the prison abuses and the illegal hiding of prisoners from the International Red Cross in direct violation of a number of treaties directly linked to the Commander in Chief and his leadership or are these unrelated instances of lower-level folks outstepping their bounds and overstepping their authority. The economy, the deficit, going very quickly from the strengths left by the previous administration including a federal surplus to the largest deficit in American history which was created in the fastest time of any civilization on the planet, it's a record breaker, the constant fear that Americans live in and whether we feel that anything will change . . . whether we are building allies in the Middle East and the rest of the world or if we are alienating more and more people, creating terrorists and enemies rather than defeating terrorism and creating friends and allies. I suspect that while the war in Iraq (which is not the war on terror) will feature prominately in the rhetoric, most folks will be voting based upon the economy and whether they feel any better off. In any case, one would hope that while events of thirty-five to forty years ago speaks to a person's youthful character and follies, the real issues are in the hear and now . . . or, at least they should be. IMO.

i agree that the whole vietnam issue is really distracting everyone and making the media focus on fringe issues. i wish that people would talk about the bush administration's deceptions and complete disregard for everyone except for the ultra-rich. it's too bad that the dems don't have a better candidate than kerry, but i just can't stand four more years with bush.

complete disregard for everyone except for the ultra-rich

You do realize that Bush's tax-cuts lifted tax burdens from just about every citizen living in this country, right?

You do realize that Bush's tax-cuts lifted tax burdens from just about every citizen living in this country, right?If you paid taxes at all and earned more than $10,500, you got a tax cut. I sure did.

now now now. the whole issue is unimportant, but there's no reason to think those documents aren't legit.

No reason to think the documents aren't legit? Have you been reading the newspaper? The only people still claiming that the memos are real are the people at CBS, and even that group is shrinking by the day.

Sorry for the delayed response, but here it goes.

It matters to me in that, if someone wants to wage a war, it makes an incredible difference to me if they've actually participated in a military conflict of some sorts.

What if America is attacked while we have a sitting President who didn't serve in the military? Remember that FDR was the Pres. during Pearl Harbor and he never served in the military.

And, for the record, Bush did serve. In the Texas Air National Guard. He amassed enough service points to complete his required service early and left the service with permission and an honorable discharge. Here's some background info on that topic:

http://sayanythingblog.com/archives/004040.php

The font issues brought up by critics have been pretty much debunked. My blog partner Carla has stayed on top of this issue and the attempts to debunk these memos aren't credible.

Aren't credible? I don't see how you could have that opinion in light of this information:

http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm

http://preemptivekarma.com/2004/09/media-matters-on-case.html

Is that supposed to be convincing? It doesn't even address 1/10th of the issues raised about those memos.

Every single argument made to debunk those memos has been addressed over at thedailykos.com.

From typeface to superscript to kerning...all of it. PC Magazine has also come out with a story saying that the memos were most definitely typewritten...from an IBM Executive typewriter. An individual who worked with IBM also posted at length on the WashingtonMonthly blog, going on at length about how the memos could very easily have been typed on an IBM Executive typewriter.

The memos are legitimate.

Kos is an amateur, not an expert, and most of the sources he links to are either not relevant or not conclusive.

Further, the PC Magazine example has been thoroughly debunked:

http://sayanythingblog.com/archives/004099.php

If you believe that those memos are legitimate at this point in time you are a person unable to see beyond party biases.

Kos didn't do the debunking, several of the people on his blog did. Also an expert on IBM typewriters has posted over at Washington Monthly, also saying the memos are typewritten.

And speaking of amateurs, I'm supposed to believe that a computer and typography expert at PC Magazine was debunked at sayanything blog?

If you believe these memos aren't legitimate, you're not paying attention.

There are at least four individuals who have testified to the content of those memos being an accurate reflection of what was going on at the time, as well.

What about Killian's secretary who has come forward and said that the documents were forgeries? What about CBS' own experts who are of the opinion that there are serious problems with those memos? What about Killian's wife who says that Killian never typed anything and that he had a very high opinion of Bush? What about similar statement's from Killian's son?

What about the fact that the memos were faxed to CBS from a Kinkos in Abliene Texas, a place where a rabid, Bush-hating man by the last name of Burkett has an account?

Carla, you're ignoring all of this because a few partisan liberals who don't want any of this to be true have turned on the fogging machines to distract you from the truths. The memos were fakes. And not even good ones. Heck, Frank Abagnale Jr. from the Catch Me If You Can movie said that if his forgeries had been as bad as this one the movie would have been Catch Me In Two Days.

These memos, whatever you think of them, are yet another nightmare for Kerry. Between hurricane Ivan and these memos, nobody has heard a word from him for two weeks now, and he desperately needs to make his case. *If* he can stay on message, and that ain't happening either.

Even his friend and supporter Imus, after an interview on the radio, was banging his head on the wall because Kerry's response to everything is "Don't ask me, ask Bush. And Bush sucks."

Like Imus and others have said, tell us your position, and be more specific than "different than Bush."

My bet is Terry MaCauliffe and the Kerry campaign are involved with the forged documents.

My bet is Terry MaCauliffe and the Kerry campaign are involved with the forged documents.

For a Better Tomorrow...Today.

Argh! Both candidates were fake. The President is just a badly programmed robot. ;)